Your IP : 216.73.217.79
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta name="description" content="description">
<meta name="keywords" content="">
<title>Page 8 - index</title>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
body {
margin-left: 0px;
margin-top: 0px;
margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px;
}
#container {margin:50px auto;padding:0px;width:910px;}
#left-button{ width:90px; height:100%;float:left }
#middle{ width:730px; margin:0px; float: left;}
#right-button{ width:90px; float:left;}
html, body, div, ul, li, dl, dt, dd, h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, form, input, dd,select, button, textarea, iframe, table, th, td { margin: 0; padding: 0; }
img { border: 0 none; displayblock}
span,ul,li,image{ padding:0px; margin:0px; list-style:none;}
#top-title{ width:714px; margin-bottom:10px; float:left; padding:0px 8px}
#top-title2{ width:320px; float:right;}
#content{ width: 730px; float:left;}
#content-top{ width:730px; background-image:url(images/top_bg.jpg); height:56px; background-repeat:no-repeat; float:left;}
#content-top1{ width:70%; padding:16px 0px 0px 30px; font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:24px; color:#636363;float:left;}
#content-top2{ width:60px; float:right; padding:25px 30px 0px 0px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:11px; color:#2f2f2f; font-weight:bold; text-align:right}
#content-middle{ width:730px; background-image:url(images/middle_bg.jpg); background-repeat:repeat-y;float:left;}
#content-middle1{ width:475px; padding:25px 0px 25px 35px; font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:12px; color:#636363; line-height:150%;float:left;}
#content-middle2{ padding:7px; float:right; margin:25px 35px 0px 0px; border:solid 1px #c8c8c9; background-color:#FFF; text-align:center}
#content-bottom{ width:730px; background-image:url(images/bottom_bg.jpg); background-repeat:no-repeat; height:58px;float:left;}
#content-bottom2{ width:110px; height:42px; margin:0px auto; padding-top:4px;}
#input{ width:58px; height:20px; background-color:#FFF; border:solid 1px #dfdfe0; color:#636363; text-align:center; font-size:11px;}
.font1{ font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:10px; color:#2f2f2f;}
.font1 a:link{
text-decoration: none;
color:#2f2f2f;
}
.font1 a:visited{
text-decoration: none;
color:#2f2f2f;
}
.font1 a:hover{
color: #2f2f2f;
text-decoration: underline;
}
-->
</style>
<script type="text/javascript">
<!--
function MM_preloadImages() { //v3.0
var d=document; if(d.images){ if(!d.MM_p) d.MM_p=new Array();
var i,j=d.MM_p.length,a=MM_preloadImages.arguments; for(i=0; i<a.length; i++)
if (a[i].indexOf("#")!=0){ d.MM_p[j]=new Image; d.MM_p[j++].src=a[i];}}
}
function MM_swapImgRestore() { //v3.0
var i,x,a=document.MM_sr; for(i=0;a&&i<a.length&&(x=a[i])&&x.oSrc;i++) x.src=x.oSrc;
}
function MM_findObj(n, d) { //v4.01
var p,i,x; if(!d) d=document; if((p=n.indexOf("?"))>0&&parent.frames.length) {
d=parent.frames[n.substring(p+1)].document; n=n.substring(0,p);}
if(!(x=d[n])&&d.all) x=d.all[n]; for (i=0;!x&&i<d.forms.length;i++) x=d.forms[i][n];
for(i=0;!x&&d.layers&&i<d.layers.length;i++) x=MM_findObj(n,d.layers[i].document);
if(!x && d.getElementById) x=d.getElementById(n); return x;
}
function MM_swapImage() { //v3.0
var i,j=0,x,a=MM_swapImage.arguments; document.MM_sr=new Array; for(i=0;i<(a.length-2);i+=3)
if ((x=MM_findObj(a[i]))!=null){document.MM_sr[j++]=x; if(!x.oSrc) x.oSrc=x.src; x.src=a[i+2];}
}
//-->
</script>
</head>
<body onload="MM_preloadImages('images/next2.png','images/previous2.png')">
<div id="container">
<div id="left-button">
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><a href="page7.html"><img src="images/previous_big.png" width="90" height="80" /></a></p>
</div>
<div id="middle">
<div id="top-title"><span class="font1">Basic HTML Version</span>
<div id="top-title2">
<table width="100%" border="0" align="right" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr>
<td width="66%"> </td>
<td width="35%" style="display:none" align="right"><img src="images/content.png" width="19" height="16" /></td>
<td width="31%" style="display:none" class="font1"><a href="">Table of Contents</a></td>
<td width="6%"><img src="images/view.png" width="19" height="16" /></td>
<td width="28%" class="font1"><a href="../../index.html">View Full Version</a></td>
</tr>
</table>
</div>
</div>
<div id="content">
<div id="content-top">
<div id="content-top1">Page 8 - index</div>
<div id="content-top2">P. 8</div>
</div>
<div id="content-middle">
<div id="content-middle1">
<br><br><br> Debate on Fee Discounting<br><br><br><br> Disclaimer: The views on this debate are not those of CESA Board, Council or Management. CESA encourages the spirit<br> of constructive engagement in a quest to find lasting solution for our beloved built environment.<br><br><br><br> I am perplexed by some of the statements emanating from members regarding fee discounting. I personally prefer<br> to refer to them as fee reductions because they go hand in hand with reduced services. In my discipline fortunately<br> it is not as chronic as with civil engineers. I would like to point out a few issues which I trust the younger members<br> should objectively consider (they are not figments of my imagination they are real and anyone who says otherwise<br> is doing nothing more than fibbing to himself) I have gone past my sunset years but they have a future to look<br> forward to.<br><br> Most civil engineering tenders attract fee reductions not uncommon of up to 80% of what we would term recommended<br> tariffs. If firms can support this sort of fee reduction only a few reasons apply:<br> Before the practice of reducing fees became standard practice (these comments apply to all disciplines the only<br> reason for using the civil engineering discipline as an example is that it comes more readily to mind)<br> Clients were being grossly overcharged (the difference between a 20% fee and a 100% fee is not trivial)<br> Clients were being provided with services that they did not need (paying for something that was not asked for<br> hence the reduced service provided now) alternately since fee reductions have become the norm:<br> Clients are being provided with a substandard service and although they expect an engineer to perform the work<br> in practice it is rarely even a technician who comes close to a project<br> There is no innovation and the same standard work is being rehashed over and over sometimes with the same<br> mistakes repeated ad nauseam<br> There is only one incentive and that is to increase the project cost, project savings if reflected in the fees will make<br> an already precarious situation untenable (so called value engineering is devoid of any value)<br> Many firms employ the most expensive REs they can find as the mark-up on the RE’s costs basically defines<br> whether a project breaks even or not<br> REs perform many (sometimes most) of the engineer’s tasks (site measurement, detailing, minutes, etc.) and<br> Clients are effectively paying for the engineer’s work twice or paying for a service they are not receiving from the<br> engineer but from someone who is employed by them (the RE is for all intents and purposes an employee of the<br> Client)<br> The number of disputes due to the failure on the part of engineers to administer contracts properly is increasing<br> notwithstanding that most of them never see the public domain as they are resolved by mediation, adjudication<br> or arbitration with<br> Clients unable to determine if a dispute arose as a result of the engineers’ blameworthiness/fault or not (a<br> large proportion of Clients are inadequately qualified to understand some of the nuances of contract law and<br> consultants get away scot free when they should be paying for the costs of remediation)<br><br> The list goes on, which for those who are looking forward to a future in the business of consulting engineering<br> should be a serious concern. I am sad to say that increasingly there seems to be little future in this profession<br> notwithstanding that I am extremely disappointed to see the direction in which it is heading after having proudly<br> dedicated the best part of 30 years to it. Consulting engineers should be the engineering Rolls Royce not just<br> people plodding along doing a job of work commensurate with the fee they are being paid. At this juncture I see our<br> business (that of Consulting Engineering) pretty much as an old building in decay. The odd cornice is falling off, paint<br> and plaster is peeling off and the walls are starting to crack and give, but the building still stands giving us a false<br> sense of security until one day it will all be too much and it will eventually crumble under its own weight. Desperate<br> times need desperate measures, please put the engineer back into engineering before it is too late to remedy the<br> status quo.<br><br> Michele Rivarola PrEng PrCPM BSc (Eng) EngPEUR FAArbSA<br> MAFSA MSAIMechE MSAIRAC MSAMA MCorrISA MSAFHE MASHRAE MNFPA MFPSA<br><br><br> Response from Stephan Vermaak<br> Mike, I’m not sure where you a residing, but I would certainly like to have a coffee sometime and have a chat if<br> you will. I cannot agree with you more, as we as consulting engineers have lost serious territory on a number of<br> aspects within our industry. I have about 25 years remaining in this ungracious industry where we are scavenging<br><br><br><br><br><br><br> 8<br>
</div>
<div id="content-middle2"><a style="text-decoration: none;" href="../../index.html#p=8"><img src="../thumb/8.jpg" /></a></div>
</div>
<div id="content-bottom">
<div id="content-bottom2">
<table width="110" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
<tr>
<td width="22%" height="44"><a href="page7.html"><img src="images/previous.png" width="26" height="19" id="Image2" onmouseover="MM_swapImage('Image2','','images/previous2.png',1)" onmouseout="MM_swapImgRestore()" /></a></td>
<td width="43%">
<a href="page3.html">3</a> <a href="page4.html">4</a> <a href="page5.html">5</a> <a href="page6.html">6</a> <a href="page7.html">7</a> <a href="page8.html">8</a> <a href="page9.html">9</a> <a href="page10.html">10</a> <a href="page11.html">11</a> <a href="page12.html">12</a> <a href="page13.html">13</a>
</td>
<td width="35%"><a href="page9.html"><img src="images/next.png" width="26" height="19" id="Image1" onmouseover="MM_swapImage('Image1','','images/next2.png',1)" onmouseout="MM_swapImgRestore()" /></a></td>
</tr>
</table>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="right-button">
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><a href="page9.html"><img src="images/next_big.png" width="90" height="80" /></a></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>